Crazy idea Re: techs

Jules

yeah that's pretty much exactly why I wasn't ready to shit on all ranged units -50%, no point to playing anything other than Orc.

This is just...false, honestly it is. No other way to say it. Remember Humans? They were still always more powerful. Surely you've played the same game we have in the last 20 years. Race representation has always been mostly somewhat even, just depending on the groups who came out on top of the rounds. Orc's/SW's were not a topic of balance for being OP lol. Gnomes already kept them in check without your range buff. The above statement makes me feel like you haven't played the game since round 3.

Said differently: There were no qualms with ranged damage before with similar units stats played out over decades, then you buffed it by 50% while calling for incremental changes lol. wut

If it is your intention to completely redo balance as-it-was, as a whole on everything, just state it that way and i'll stop harping on it and look for ways to improve from where we are, or from where you want it to be.

Edit: I'm going to add gold production into this topic as well because it's the same. A complete departure from the old game, yet i've had the feeling we are trying to re-create the old game based on the game guide and balance/change after. What are your intentions? Is it fine we are making 2, 3, 4x as much gold as before in prot? Am I screaming into the wind every time I bring markets up? Is this gold production overall fine for you?

Lord Thane

Jules I don't know what game you're referring to that has been getting played with a -50% nerf "for decades", but I know it's not Thardferr - it's been dead for decades. If old Thardferr silently changed the rules to rebalance at some point, that's fine - they had 16 rounds to tweak things however they wanted. Maybe the new Thardferr will adopt a ranged nerf too at some point, who knows - there hasn't been a single real round yet, so it's really pretty moot.

Regardless of all that, we're following the game guide as best we can while trying to make some sensible adjustments. It's not like we aren't listening to community input either - there's been tons of player suggested changes made, a far cry from the secrecy of how things used to be, we even publish a changelog that has 90% of changes published (small bits excluded to not ruin gameplay).

When it comes to the suggestion of nerfing all ranged attack -50%, I don't think there's even community support for it, so it's double vetoed. At least for now.

Xliest

Lord Thane it’s documented that range was only 50% effective in the old game since round 4 meaning there were 12 round with it in place and assuming you played the game is not a far stretch. To your second point if we are trying to recreate the old game and work from that as a base, let’s go with 100% range and see what happens, but then why not provide a similar gold and population growth function. And also use other known/accepted systems.

Blahblah

Cut lithar prov sizes in half and limit the total number of lithar provs. Or you could give a bonus incentive for going racial?

Lord Thane

Blahblah already did it. Lithar birthrate is slower, tuth is slightly faster, the rest are faster + some modest racial trait boosts.

trupheus

Lord Thane

Undead players would love to be in a prov together.

Lord Thane

trupheus there's a province for them, Syth. TheKeeper told me he's going to make it selectable, maybe in time for Round 1 🙂

Jets

trupheus rude, I thought we were friends.

TheKeeper

Lord Thane In an age of legend, we, the mighty undeads, cast out the wretched humans from the sacred realm of Syth, claiming those hallowed lands as our eternal dominion!

And now, Thardferr provinces shall be ours

trupheus

Jets sorry according to Lear I have to hate you forever because one round we attacked each other.

Lord Thane

TheKeeper you can have Ruch and Edilar, just stay away from the Khardfee mountains or you'll be sorry!

Mack10

Jules

Jules Having to build MC's, GT's and use a completely ass army(to only compete on defense?) just so you can bless your friends, fireball/GB or gate is not even close to a good trade-off.

I do not disagree completely on this but there needs to be a tradeoff, and I didnt say anything about MC's, those to me would be a dwarven strategy but Guard towers, for sure to help save your archers or mages.
I think the magic should help considerably on defense. I think firewall needs to be tweaked and increased to at least 15%. This is the trade off for a shitty army. This allows a counter attack strategy. Kind of a farming peaceful race unless provoked. Shadow hall needs to be kept up to deter attacks as well.
Mage defense, I suggested having them housed in Guard towers preventing damages and getting wiped out from attacks or Maybe GT's will negate the damage to mages first?
Carageous are utter trash lol 100% on the same page.

Jules The races do have strengths and weaknesses, it's great, but let's not lean into hard countering. I don't think anyone wants to wake up to getting destroyed by a player of equal size because they got hard countered with their army at home.

I cant argue this but I feel like some races builds should work very well against others. The fact Shieldbearers exist tells me there needs to be a counter. I attacked you multiple times last round and got completely wiped out with Heavy ATC gnomish units, you lost next to nothing.... but I expected that with you having the counter race.

Jules Which upkeep are you referring to?

I thought you were referring to dwarves, my bad!

Jules It would be more accurate to say I am simping for Elves

Yes, yes you are lol My counter argument is to have a race that 'plays different' and requires a bit more attention then others, as in keeping firewall up, Shadow hall, blessings. The spells keep you are competitive, and the blessing get you protection from the community, without it, yes they are weak. I DO NOT argue with you on the mages though, something needs to change.

Jules Where do you actually sit with the countering? I think you just have the wrong perception of what i'm espousing. imo we maintain the countering system of old, not specifically increase or decrease it at this point. We can think about and adjust that as needed after we get the easier balancing out of the way. When I say hard countering, I am talking current gnomes vs current Orc, that is bad. Old Dwarf vs old Elf, those were bad. They should still lose but be brought more in line. The only thing that bothers me about existing (Non-racial)countering are the mounted units. They have a hard counter but offer no benefit and have an increased armory cost, unless we consider their stats to be baked into the balance on

I sit on every race has a weakness, to me it forces the community to play diverse races and not center on the ones that are most rounded coughhumanscough and every race has incentive to keep another alive ensuring that province stays competitive to keep the race they are weakest against, in check. I feel this promotes diplomacy. Again I know I am crazy but I like that part of the game.
Gnomes vs Orc, yes not good, but we can make small tweaks to change that up to at least have them competitive, Like the Undead racial strat, but for Shadow warriors? Surrounding is made for dwarves and humans and both of them lack the pike units to take them down hard.
Dwarf vs Elf, this is rough fight for elves, but a dwarven economy is so fragile, killing their food and population can really cause some damage to them, the big issue was retals for casting multiple spells. Keeping up SH and hopefully catching their army out and countering, then gating home while ICE storming their food and forcing disbandonment.
I dont have all the solutions for this, but I wanted to at least bring awareness.

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