Pop growth

Lord Thane

DougEfresh all I know is 2 gnomes got completely dusted when they sent all ranged armies against my army that 100% nullified ranged attacks lol

I've had to rethink my strat tho, to actually build my cheap units, because my elites are too damn expensive and some filthy orcs figured out I was highly anti-range at the expense of not having good ranged ... I just adjusted my strat based on the experience.

Cora

Lord Thane what do you mean give them unlimited ammo?

Lord Thane

Cora in reference to the fodder races using peasants as ammo in war, since their fodder units are so cheap/practically free, the peasant birthrate is much more valuable to them.

For example, my axe man costs 900 gp, with 9 attack and 11 defense. Whereas a orc slinger costs 60 gp and has 2 attack and 2 defense... The orc can make 15 slingers for cheaper than my 1 axe man, and the difference in attack/def is 9/11 for me and 30/30 for the orc. And in practical battle, the orcs 15 slingers would actually kill my axe man 100% without losing a single slinger in battle due to them being ranged... They could kill 2 of my axe men even, without sustaining a single sliger loss... Now there's strategies we can each employ to overcome such differences, but at the root of it all the same simple fact remains = peasant birthrate is not nearly as valuable to me as it is the orc, because they can easily push out thousands of cheap units, while I can only send out a tiny force comparitively - leaving me peasant-rich and the orc peasant-poor.

The peasant birthrate is a sort of balancer. So the orc can't continuously pump out an unlimited supply of fodder units to overwhelm everyone else. If we increase the birthrate too much, then we quickly run the risk of unbalancing the game in a game breaking way.

DougEfresh

its cool you used dwarf vs orc in your analogy, but gnomes are built off fodder. we build what we can of inf. what we can afford of cats and bals. psh riders. and everything else is troops that die by the thousands.

We managed to kill : 0 Shadow Warrior 30 Rusher 205 Slother 0 Wolf Master 405 Slinger 4 Axe Thrower

But we lost : 0 Catapult 36 Infantry 1209 Militia 0 Rider 1265 Rock thrower 0 Balista

We managed to kill : 80 Shadow Warrior 256 Rusher 272 Slother 185 Wolf Master 417 Slinger 160 Axe Thrower

But we lost : 1 Catapult 179 Infantry 1700 Militia 7 Rider 1700 Rock thrower 2 Balista

but our pop gains are the same? our forging speed is the same?

Lord Thane

DougEfresh forging speed isn't really the same when looking at a bigger picture. My axe man requires 8 iron, 1 wood, 190 gp. While the 15 slingers are 15 iron, 15 wood, 75 gp. Orcs can afford to run their forges 24/7 without breaking a sweat, and they get enormous boosts to iron/wood production - so that's no problem. I can't afford to run forges that long, actually I only run forges for parts of a day usually because I can't afford the expensive everything.

Really what downside is there to the orc in that scenario? None, it's all easy street for them, buff after buff after buff, only barely limited by their capability to produce more peasants more quickly. And yet, they still have multiple ways of improving the peasant production speed. I don't have a way of making my units cheaper.

So should we increase orc/gnome birthrates by double, and cut all other races unit costs in half to compensate and balance? There has to be a balance, not just throw more buffs at a race because they have one shortcoming - one that everyone else also has to deal with as well.

Xliest

Lord Thane I appreciate your concern about these balance issues but there has to be a better way to balance than say no this is what we have we are sticking to it. In your example you forget that what you are saying is predicated on orcs having basically unlimited GH space, currently is the same as the other races. So once both of us reach a point where land is equal the orc has to send what, 5 army’s at you to be able to kill the same amount of troops seem very unbalanced considering each attach gets a retal, and likely a pretal, so if you survive loosing 10 castles to break the dwarf for one. Is that a good trade? You say we’re not looking at the big picture. the big picture is that orcs where meant as somewhat of a counter to dwarves. They should be able to fend off and break the dwarf readily. Also we talked about the rang nerf… this is one of the reasons and arguments for it to also apply to this version.

DougEfresh

as a gnome with 1.7 mills and .5 forges i cant run my forges 24/7 without consantly checking. not to mention adjusting my pop every tick because...
in that first br the losses are 644 for the orc to 2510
second orc 1370 to 3589

pop is a resource as you've said and gnomes need it way more than any other race except undead, who are now in second.

i dont know why youre throwing orc and gnome together like we both need buffs. those were just recent brs to show comparitive losses. gnomes lose way more weapons and pop per hit. we also dont make anymore pop and barely more weapons than other races.

trupheus

DougEfresh

Hmmm has me wondering who really uses more population Gnome or Undead. Legion takes 2 villagers so it equals the pop use of RT and militia. Pikeman uses 2. Abomination caragous uses 4.

Xliest

I’m not even specifically talking about races, everyone feels the same pain through protection, maybe there’s something where there’s a floor to how much pop you gain based on how many houses you have, even that would be better that what we are experiencing now.

DougEfresh

trupheus I did not realize that. That's crazy lol

Xliest

Just quickly it seems like lithar pop growth has actually been nerfed even further, as now I’m only making 12.8% of my missing pop when the keeper set it at 25% originally. Maybe that’s why it feels so bad? Half is harsh thane I feel slighted.

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