Castle passing countermeasures

TheKeeper

Here's my idea:

Kingdom 1 attacks Kindom 2 and win a castle
Kingdom 3 attacks Kigdom 1 (Castle passing)
Kingdom 1 receives a notification Kigdom 3 have his castle and gain retaliation rights Vs Kingdom 3 and Kingdom 1

Before taking a poll, please help me with your views to enrich the idea.

Nolio

TheKeeper How does this work if the Kingdom 3 is a random? (I assume you mean Kingdom 2 in line 3)

If Kingdom 1 attacks Kingdom 2 and wins a castle
Kingdom 3 is random guy

Now Kingdom 3 has a retaliation against him from both Kingdom 1 and 2?

Jaxx

How do you know if its castle passing? And on third bullet, you mean Kingdom 2 gets rights vs 3 and 1?

TheKeeper

Jaxx Maybe 1 or 2 tiks later? yes, retal Vs both

TheKeeper

Nolio You are right :o, How could you avoid that?

Lord Thane

This sounds like it entrenches and encourages pre-re even more.

It's passing the pre-re to #3.

If it's just passing the pre-re to #3 instead of #1, then functionally it's not doing anything different than what's happening now.

The people defending against pre-re will then respond by passing the castle twice:

#1 attacks #2.
#3 attacks #1.
#4 attacks #3.

Now #2 gets retal against #1/#3, but both #1/#3 are in protection - so they can't be pre-re by #2.

#4 now has the castle, and his buddies #1/#2 are safe.

As demonstrated, the idea does nothing to address the core problem = pre-re. And it's easily bypassed by castle passers, as is their right to defend against pre-re.

So we exchange castle pass 1.0 with castle pass 2.0, it's the same castle pass defense, just with one more step.

saadht

@TheKeeper

Let’s keep it simple.

Provinces cannot attack each other. If a much smaller kd (less than 30%) takes a castle from a larger kd, within the last 2 ticks, you get a retal on both as the defender.

That’s it.

Couple that with an AI agent flagging questionable multi activity between kd that can be observed and taken action against.

As long as castle passing remains so strong, it will happen, no matter what. Even I don’t like it even though I’ve received castles from passes before but it’s too easy and too strong to avoid right now. We must systematically tackle it.

Lord Thane

saadht you're not understanding the big picture. Castle passing is not a problem, it's a response to pre-re.

As long as pre-re exists, there's no point try to prevent castle passing, as you'd just be removing the only defense to a much worse much more toxic play style, the pre-re.

TheKeeper

Lord Thane What if we implement 3 levels of protection?

Initial protection (We have it)
Regular protection (We have it)
Massacre protection: If a KD loses more than 30% (Can be modified) of the theoretical max. Military units in one attack, it receives the 3rd level, protecting Vs retaliation, this kind of protection will be shorter than level 2 (Maybe max. 4 hours?)

Lord Thane

TheKeeper I don't see how that would change anything? If someone is facing pre-re in 4 hours, then they might as well castle pass, before they get retalled for 2 castles.

Actually, that would help the castle pass defense, since they would get an extra 4 hours to button up their protections against incoming pre-re. So they'd wait 3 hours, then run the castle pass.

Konkistador

TheKeeper you on the money here.
1.inability to attack below 50%. (Unless to take retals)(bottom feeding or multi use)

Inability to attack over 150% ks strength. (Unless taking retal, Ageee Castle passing can be tactical but you should not be able to pass to a 100 lower ks kingdom thar belongs to your new born and remove the castle of the battlefield)
Stop attacking being possible between province players. (It doest make sense being able to do so, already voted for)
Additional 5 tics protection if you loose more than 15% of your army but not the battle, land or castle.
Keep the other current protection.

Believe this will make the game much better and enjoyable to all. Apart of all new born players.

Sweglord

What was the issue using the "castle loss immunity" @Lord Thane suggested? I thought that was a good idea.

King Haybol

Seems interesting brainstorming instead of finding an unknown KD that is getting the castle. 🤣🤣🤣

Lord Thane

King Haybol focusing on castle passing is part of what made finding the solution (cli) take so long. Fixing the root issue, pre-re, fixes castle passing.

You have to ask "why are people castle passing?".

Because they don't want to get pre-re.

Why make an attack for 1 castle if you'll just get pre-re to lose 2 castle?

So you castle pass to defend against pre-re.

That's the beauty of cli, it nullifies both. It also encourages people to make attacks. It also discourages suiciding, since you will want to defend against the possible retal.

King Haybol

Lord Thane Agreed

Nolio

Lord Thane While I get the point of CLI, one side of it that bothers me is:

I've often played in a province without any allies. When I see someone bigger win a castle, as a solo player, that's when I liked to attack and try to win a castle. CLI not only discourages that, it prevents it altogether. Players who are by themselves are no longer able to swoop in and steal a castle from two separate provinces that are warring.

Castle passing has been a viable strategy for many, and often frowned upon. But just because people feel that it's not honourable and cheap, shouldn't be grounds for removing it.

The pre and retaliation attacks are also part of the game.

If Kingdom 1 attacks Kingdom 2 and wins a castle,
Kingdom 1 passes it to Kingdom 3
Kingdom 4 waits until K1's protection ends, does a pre for Kingdom 2 and wins a castle from Kingdom 1
Kingdom 2 retaliates against K1

End result after first wave of fighting:
K3 is up 1 castle
K1 is down 2 castles
K2 is even castle
K4 is up 1 castle

Now K1 has a retal against K4
K3 does a pre against K4 and wins a castle
K1 takes the retal against K4 and wins a castle
K2 now does a pre against K3 wins a castle
K4 retals against K3 wins a castle

End result after wave 2:
K3 is even on castles
K4 is even on castles
K1 is down 1 castle
K2 is up 1 castle

And the cycle goes on.

I know that's a lot to read and can be a bit confusing, but... The point is, the system can still work if both sides are fighting as often as they can.

Castle passing, pres and retals, seem to really negatively affect individuals who are alone in the game the most. And maybe that's what this aims to fix, but if so I've heard no mention of it. It seems that the provinces who have allies are the biggest advocates.

Lord Thane

Nolio solo players will get the greatest benefit of CLI, that part is obvious. A solo player can't pre-re, and can't castle pass, so they're 100% defenseless against pre-re. CLI gives that solo player a chance.

From what I can gather from your scenario, it's describing the circular nature of two alliances playing the pre-re/castle-pass mambo. All things being equal, a 10-player group vs another 10-player group running constant pre-re/castle-pass against each other is likely to end 1:1. The entire game degrades to each group running the mambo back and forth, hoping someone doesn't login enough or misses a tick, or whatever. And, it seems this game of mambo isn't fun for either side.

For the solo player, they don't have a voice in anything. If they attack, they'll be subjected to a pre-re and no possibility of a response. CLI is the only hope for a solo player, otherwise their only reasonable strategy as a solo is to keep a huge army home and farm and hope nobody comes along to break them.

Nolio

Lord Thane I agree that solo players would get the most benefit from the pre and retals being taken out through the CLI, the only part I dislike is not being able to snipe a castle as a random.

I do like the idea for the most part though, and your slight change to match the CLI and retal times sounds reasonable. I will give it some more thought!

Lord Thane

Nolio I'm not sure about your point for sniping a castle. Do you mean the higher chance that warring factions will be in protection? Yes, a side effect will be more players in protection. With CLI A you could at least make a land hit, but with CLI B they would be fully wrapped in regular protection.

Fewer targets for all players. But, when you do land a hit - you get the benefits of not being gangbanged to hell. I think that's a great tradeoff lol

This is why I am a supporter of the idea to publish the protection status in the KHoF and province view - so you can scan your preferred KS range and quickly pick available a target. We don't have to put how long the protection is valid, just a asterisk or colored background on their name to show they're in protection would be great.

trupheus

You attack for castles. Not land. There’s no shortage of land. Castles are the real commodity as that’s your ticket to having a bigger kingdom.

Even with CLI the pre is going to exist. Just in a smaller window.

There is no right answer.

The simplest system is all attacks grant retals. No limitations. Castle passing is what it is. Necessary evil to protect against pre. This creates the villains that make the round interesting.

Lord Thane

trupheus how would CLI allow pre? It's matched to the retal in length, and prevents outsiders from grabbing castles (or all attacks via CLI B), so no pre is possible at all - other than a land grab (if we used CLI A).

You were also the first one to suggest giving attackers a protection, a month ago - so you gotta give a logical rationale for why you would want to go back on that idea now that it's been refined 🧐