spell success

Lord Thane

There should be some difficulty for casting on someone much larger, I'll have to check the code to see if that part is working. The magic system is incredibly complex, so I wouldn't be surprised if there was code added to scale casting in that way, that isn't firing off correctly.

When we integrate magic into the Market it's going to be a good bridge between casters and non-casters. We'll probably have scaling levels of each spell/scroll to help keep a balance of sm/lg kingdoms - but basically a buyer of scroll/spell will instantly get the effects of it applied to their kingdom at purchase.

trupheus

Lord Thane

The way I see market spells working is if I’m pimping out my wizards to do what someone else wants and renting out my schools so they can destroy them like every dirty orc does

100 wizard and 10 schools for 10000gp. Cast whatever you want with them.

This creates so many issues. Who handles upkeep? What about the rest time? What about when the seller gets hit and loses? Do dwarves suddenly get the magic buff of elves because they’re utilizing those elven wizards? So I can rent wizards to gate my army back?

Lord Thane

trupheus that's kind of how I imagined setting it up initially, but TheKeeper came up with a better idea of "scrolls".

Casters will go to the Market and they'll create scrolls by casting the spell in the market. Casting in the Market will work just like casting in the magic section. If they successfully cast the spell they're trying for then the scroll is created and goes for sale on the Market at whatever price they want. Then anyone can buy the scroll and instantly get the effects.

The caster runs the risk of failing to cast the spell, wasting their wizards, just as they do now. So casters will need to figure their failure rate into the price of their scrolls.

This is a much simpler method of allowing casters to sell in the open market, doesn't require a ton of complicated new mechanics, just re-uses a lot of what's already there in the regular magic system.

trupheus

Lord Thane

I think this takes us right back to the scenario where a 50 land kingdoms casts a spell that is bought by a 1000 land kingdom?

Or is the scroll is created with X wiz and Y school for a blessing. Buy it and hope it works. Doesn’t make sense for a 100 land kingdom to buy a blessing created with 100 wiz and 20 schools. That would work? Maybe? Only Farsee Bless NG and GC are sellable?

What about locking every researched spell behind elf? Want Gate and GB? Play elf. It’s a massive advantage once you get there.

Lord Thane

trupheus I'm all for making Gate for elf only. We did put that in a poll, I'm not sure if it got enough support. Need to confer with Keeper on that, as it is a major change, we need consensus.

I haven't figured out how to level the spells in market yet, as it's all just ideas floating around for now. But like I mentioned I think we will have levels of scrolls, which I guess would be based on buyers land or ks. Or perhaps I'll make a points system like = speller casts blessing and it calcs out to be 150 points of power, now depending on the size of the buyer those points will have varying effects, maybe a 50 land buyer gets 3 ticks of blessing and a 10 land buyer gets 15 ticks out of it. Something like that would be simple and it self scales.

TheKeeper

Lord Thane Sincerely, Gate for elf only sounds unfair for other races, What if we do "Perfect Gate" as racial spell for elfs, 0 casualties, sooner in tech tree, and we increase casualties for standard gate?

TheKeeper

Lord Thane My idea of a scroll:

Spell: Blessing
Text: "Cool flavour text"
Power: {Number of wizards used to create the spell}
Eficency: {Based on a ratio of techs, race, Schools of the caster, etc}
Side notes: (tips for usage. IE. recomended for KS from X to Y and/or lands)

More wizards useds, should be more expensive, also better techs and race bonuses

Sayer

Lord Thane instead of scrolls being created by casting on the market, people should just request to buy a spell in market. People can cast and if they succeed then they get paid. That way the casting kingdom can see the size of kingdom and know if they are too big to succeed and you won't have tiny multis selling scrolls to their main kd.

Lord Thane

TheKeeper that sounds like a great compromise.

trupheus

TheKeeper doesn’t elf deserve it? If even just for a round. For @Jules

Jets

TheKeeper I like increasing casualties. Makes it risky. Need SG1 to escort.

Lord Thane

TheKeeper in your idea is the power and efficiency supposed to affect the size of kingdoms it could be used on?

It's a valid concern, how we can balance the scrolls where a weak caster can make a spell that works on a much larger buyer. But I also want to figure something that's extremely simple. Extremely, extremely simple. Something that's fair, and easy for casters to use and easy for buyers to buy without having to run numbers in their head.

I'm kinda liking this idea of a points system, just for the fact it scales up/down on its own and nobody has to think too hard about what they're getting when they're selling/buying.

Maybe the number of wizards x efficiency ÷ buyers land?

Xliest

TheKeeper I don’t mind this idea then its buyer beware, if they buy and it fails on them or something… if they buy outside their range the chance of failure goes up. The caster can just sit back and enjoy the money and the dirty orc who’s trying to buy blessing needs to pay for 3 or 4 attempts. I like that also.

TheKeeper

Lord Thane what if... instead of spell scrolls, we make plain mana potions?
We extract that delicate liquid from our handsome Wizards and put them in bottles ready to be sold, and the buyer can use as much as he likes for his spells.

(It sounded better in my mind)

MP is plain, can be added as a resource like gold, or iron. IE. with 100 Dwarf wizards, the result should be 50 MP, with elves 100 MP
Like any organic element, it should have an expiration date OR a limit of how much a kingdom can have

You can't mix wizards and MP on the same spell

You need to research further spells to be able to cast with MP

MP can't be used for offensive spells (We don't want another EQ apocalypse)

Lord Thane

TheKeeper I'm having a hard time visualizing MP. How we would generate MP?

Here's an updated version of the points system, now called Adaptive Power Scrolls.

Power = wizards × (tech % / 100)
Ticks delivered = power ÷ buyer land

This will scale on its own, so a small kingdom casting a scroll will have a fair affect regardless of whether the buyer is 50 land or 100 land in size.

For example, a caster with 300 wizards. They cast a scroll. Say they have level 3 spell tech.

300 wizards x 1.5 = 450 power

50 land buyer: 450÷50 = 9 ticks of power.
100 land buyer: 450÷100 = 4 ticks of power.

We can adjust the formula a bit if needed, but roughly this formula works perfect and scales itself between sellers and buyers of all sizes.

Xliest

Lord Thane harvesting mp would put wisazrds in cool down just like casting a spell I imagine.

TheKeeper

Xliest yes, and a lot easier to implement

But with spells, we will have items!, a brand new world will be open with the posibilities

DougEfresh

draining those wiz leaves em tired. they'll want a little rest

TheKeeper

Pretty simple:

We add a new "Spell" under magic section named "MP Generation"
*Then we add X quantity of wizards to cast it (100% success)
*As a result the new resource MP is filled

1 MP will have the strenght of 1 Elf wizard as best School ratio with "Magical instruments tech"

If a Dwarf with a few schools and 0 technology, may produce with 100 mages maybe 12 MP...

Also, we put the option to cast using MP or wizards

Lord Thane

TheKeeper ahhhh okay, I see where you're going with that now.

That would make integration in the market extremely simple.

But it sounds like it will make magic a lot more complex. Idk if it's worth pursuing such big changes to the magic system when so many people are screeching about the system "being broken". I loosely hoped the scrolls idea would help assuage the complaints about magic difficulty.

Idk, you wanna put a poll on it and see what the sweaty masses think?

Xliest

Lord Thane why not just find some one to cast spells on you… I get the market and time zones and availability once your on a schedule though the elf is going to be casting you are going to be paying it’s all the same. We are creating systems that players have created already for 30 years might be fine to let them continue doing that…

Lord Thane

Xliest I already addressed that multiple times, but yet again - it's because we don't need to rely on archaic and unreliable and annoying methods of trading when we have the tech and capability to make a better system that eases the burden for all users and ensures all parties get what they're looking for and increases the time to make a deal from days/weeks to seconds. It increases accessibility to buyers and broadens the market for sellers, thus improving prices for everyone and improving the user experience.

Theres zero downside to having a marketplace, not for goods and not for magic.

Do you think after 30 years that if Thardferr had continued being developed that it would not have had a player driven market by now? That preposterous.

Anyway I don't want to post an ad looking for a caster, and then haggling for a price, and then hoping they will deliver, and hoping they can cast at the times I need, and on and on and on. That's just dumb. We can obviously make a much better way, and we are going to.

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