suggestions - buildings & other

Thecatman

I like changing GT's, useless building. Combining training centers would be nice, atc/TC serve the same purpose so makes sense to just combine

Lord Thane

skigglez welcome to the forum!

That's a great idea for GT. Definitely could use a buff on those so they're more valuable. The tech tie in is cool too, we've had a lot of talk about improving the techs and this would be a perfect addition to boost the towers effectiveness.

From what I recall MC currently DO effect attacking. I will try remembering to test to confirm the next time I'm doing battle sims. We did also buff them recently like Trupheous mentioned so they're doubly effective compared to what they used to be.

Combining atc/tc sounds good to me since it's a bit redundant. Definitely would need to rebalance the production ratios. This seems like a good fix to get us on the path of making attacking great again. But, it is a major core change, we'll have to have a poll and discussion just on this for sure.

I think gold is already super accessible, we probably shouldn't buff it further... People are thrown off about gold this test round because of the techs. When we have a normal round with long tech times then everyone is going to be flush with gp. We'll have a better idea of economics once we get into a real round, changing things at this point might cause a financial crisis in a real round, it will be runaway inflation lmao

I intentionally added names in the market to add a social aspect to it, AND a strategic component = you might prefer paying more to an ally vs buying a competitors cheaper resource. Maybe in the future I will add an anonymous listing option (will come with a cost, you know the Head Market Monger is gonna charge out the ass to smuggle your goods anonymously).

I don't recall if we built in a randomizer in truesight, I don't think so. I think it should be pretty accurate, otherwise it wouldn't be very useful. We could make it more costly to cast though, if it's currently too cheap, need to get more input from casters about that though.

TheKeeper

Lord Thane Yes TS have a randomizer

DougEfresh

Lord Thane please dont merge tc and atc

Lord Thane

TheKeeper bleh, hopefully it's not set too high. Friggin useless wizards can't even do spying correctly, this is exactly why I have zero wizards in my dwarven kingdom 💪

Lord Thane

DougEfresh lol I'm not gonna just go ass blast a major change like that on a whim, there'd need to be some general consensus.

Thecatman

DougEfresh can you elaborate on why you think that's a bad idea?

CyberPtra

Thecatman

I don’t think it should be merged. The whole idea is that we would need to prioritize what is important for our kingdom. Decide ATC or TC and run the ratios accordingly…. If you want to go all ATC, be sure you can afford and maintain…. Or go cheaper fodder with TC. You can choose any ratio you want ATC or TC. Balance may go 50/50 or 40/60.

In a way TC and ATC already combined in theory.

Sayer

Thecatman economy of thardferr is one of its best elements. Simplifying building ratios so there is no opportunity cost with what you decide to build would take away from the game not add to it in my opinion

skigglez

It would need to come with changes to the other less utilized buildings, or else it probably wouldn't work.

skigglez

CyberPtra
If they are already combined, then what’s the downside in simplifying things by combining? This lets the devs make the other unused buildings actually do something. If not, they might as well just remove guard towers from the game altogether.

skigglez

Sayer
The point was unlocking a currently useless building in Guard Towers as a defensive option for those who wish to farm, and give people who want to attack more freedom in their building ratios to run Medical Centers. I know the devs said MC’s are working but I’ve yet to see a single person build them. Players can still choose the army composition that they want if TC and ATC are combined. New players more likely to stick around if it’s a little less complicated and if attacking is incentivized, in my opinion.

Sayer

skigglez -1 combining TC and ATC

trupheus

Rather than combining, I see another viable solution would be to increase train rates, thus reducing the need for as many TC and ATC. Same with mills and mines. Make them produce more, so fewer are needed. Freeing up those buildings to be used elsewhere. Make houses hold more population (plz papa, let gnomes and orcs have the extra housing they're supposed to relative to other races).

Except farms, I think farms are great.

skigglez

trupheus
That seems ok to me

CyberPtra

It might be an unpopular opinion, but I think some of us are set into believing what ratios “should” be in terms of army sizes and productions. Everything has a natural equilibrium for sustainability. Last beta we were given all the resources, so we ran huge armies (unsustainable).

Instead of expecting a 1:1 GH be sustained by 1:1 farms, maybe we all just run smaller armies. Maybe run more building that gain/utilize the race bonus and trade for the other resources.

(Theoretical numbers and crude examples): Maybe the sustain rate is actually 0.6:1 GH and 1.4:1 Farms…. Maybe managing training rate is TC/ATC (combined) is 0.8:1 and forges 0.2:1. If you are a dwarf, maybe build more mines > mills and sell/trade excess iron for wood.

I agree there is merit to making some buildings more useful (ie. GT), but we cannot expect to have everything inflated…. Undoubtedly, there will always be “mandatory” and “optional” buildings. And as rulers we have to find the balance.

Choosing to go schools/wizards, will have opportunity cost elsewhere… Maybe go more houses with extra unused pop just for the gold?

I don’t think buildings all need to be the “best” because that is impossible. I think all the buildings have to be “acceptable” as a viable option - good enough to build and be useful in a strategy (but it will take away from something else). You cannot run everything!

Extreme example: We can’t expect an elf to have great production (gold/iron/food), great magic success, formidable army, great attack/defence, huge armoury reserves…etc. something has to give and be compromised. Hence we need trade and allies. Focus should be in balancing the races… each should have advantages and disadvantages. And some may change over time (early vs late game)… and hopefully enjoyable to play. If every race is good at everything, then we all should just be human, and there wouldn’t need to be different races.

With unlimited resources, it hurt all races that received a resource bonus. With reduced tech time, gnomes were not able to exceed early game. With the resource drop (after EQ bug), struggling tic by tic management was resolved and the new market was flooded with cheap resources. Therefore, beta is NOT a realistic depiction of the economy for resources/army sizes/growth/production/market value.

Yes. I am aware my examples are crude and not realistic, but I am trying to convey a general concept. Just a thought. (Maybe I should have started a new thread with this).

Lord Thane

CyberPtra well said! Having the difficulties is a big part of the fun, forcing our minds to overcome adversity through new strategies. Buffing things, in many scenarios, reduces the amount of forward thinking that's required. Which in a big way means less traditional Thardferrian "fun", lots of moving parts to consider in everything you do.

I'm all for improving useless buildings though. I think the massive MC buffs will see them gain more traction, and we definitely need to give GTs some juice too.

trupheus

CyberPtra

10000% our ratios are going to have to be different. Higher food costs means more farms means SOMETHING has to give.

skigglez

Lord Thane are the losses prevented with MC going to show up in battle reports?

Lord Thane

skigglez that would be a fun addon, I'll look into it the next time I'm working in the battle engine.

Xliest

What’s next 200 peasants per house, Edit: /s (I swear to god thane) lol let’s All just chill, we just and I mean like 20 hours ago just made battles work as some of the units were having there stats mixed and messed up so let’s make sure the game works then we’ll be able to see what changes are needed and wanted.

Lord Thane

Xliest actually think Keeper was going to update orc GH to hold 50. That's a big population boost for gnomes and orcs, essentially, since those troop housings don't cost peasant space.

Not sure if he ever did that or not, it was a convo several weeks ago.

That's the only thing I think for sure should be updated. And then it's a "probably" on GT.