This vote proposes implementing the CLI system described below to eliminate two toxic strategies: pretal-retal and castle-pass.

What is pre-re and castle pass?
After you take a castle, your opponent’s ally hits you (pretal), then the opponent uses their retal to hit again - costing you two castles. To prevent this, players use castle-pass by having an ally hit them after an attack to trigger protection. These tactics discourage regular attacks, promote suicide hits, and create a frustrating game environment. CLI is designed to end both behaviors effectively.

Note Retals Give Retals
Many players have suggested allowing retals to generate retals again. With CLI in place, this makes even more sense as it would enable intense 1v1 duels where players trade hits until generals or troops run out, since retals bypass CLI.

Castle Loss Immunity A

Rule

  1. If a player successfully captures a castle, they gain Castle Loss Immunity equal to their opponents retal.time.
  2. Only the original defender can still take a castle back from them via retal.
  3. All other attackers who hit them during CLI cannot gain a castle, even if they win big.
  4. Give retals a flag "gainedcastle", no flag = no break through CLI (prevent castle passing via sending 1 unit to attack a friend to give him retal).

Prevents

  1. Pre-re from causing 2-castle losses (pre can't take it, only the re can).
  2. Castle passing (friends can't hit and get a castle to give you protection, they won’t get one).

Still Allows

  1. Land attacks.
  2. The original defender to retal for 1 castle.
  3. Multiple attackers to hit you, just without stealing castles unless they’re your retal target.
  4. Also possible tie-in Castle Defense Tech, higher tech = longer immunity when you take a castle (if we did this, then obviously the default for CLI would be like 12HRS and increase with tech to match generals speed).

Castle Loss Immunity B

Pros

  1. Much easier to develop. We'd just add simple logic that if an attacker wins a castle, they get protection time equal to the retal time. It's a tiny tweak, much smaller chance of regression bugs versus CLI A.
  2. Easier for players to learn/understand.
  3. Achieves the same benefits of CLI as far as nullifying castle pass and pretal/retal.
  4. Encourages attacks.
  5. Discourages suicide attacks.

Cons

  1. It's regular protection, so players couldn't pretal for a land hit (pro, actually?).
  2. Nothing? It's still CLI, so there's no downside 😇

Should We Fix Toxic Strategy?

Yes, Castle Loss Immunity A
Yes, Castle Loss Immunity B
Yes, Retals Give Retals
No, Don't Change Anything, I Like Getting Gangbanged
This poll has ended.

    Can we have an option with A but without retals giving retals? Or if I vote for A without voting for retals giving retals it does the same thing?

      Also will we know which kd is under CLI? What if we hit random and he’s under CLI?

        saadht if you hit someone with cli A then you could win land, if you hit someone with cli B then your attack would not go through because it uses regular protection.

          • Leo

            • Post #6
            • Edited

            CLI B -> Please clarify:

            • If you castle pass you and your buddy can hide under protection or i am getting it wrong?
            • Protection time equal to retal time mean 30 hours of protection?

            CLI A ->

            • Land hits will or will not provide protection time to the KD who is under CLI?

            Retal giving Retals -> In my opinion retals not giving retals was good practice. Provided "retal right" to have a good value in game. If retals give retals -> a kingdom that fails to defend an attack, losing troops, land, castle, has to give out a retal to lose more with a pre-retal + retal.

              Lord Thane this castle loss immunity B can be abuse by alliance.. what if kingdom A and C are allied. For an instance kingdom A loses the attack on kingdom B. And then kingdom C will attack kingdom A for protection. So kingdom A and C have immunity for 24 hours. Now kingdom C will enjoy the emmunity and can build more troops. He get fat and hard to beat when hes out of immunity. This is not good. The old thardferr system is da better one. That is why we are still playing this game until now coz of that game system.. better that way.

                  Leo
                  B:

                  1. No, castle pass is impossible.
                  2. If they get 1 hour retal, then you get 1 hour protection.

                  A:

                  1. Getting hit for land while under CLI would follow the same rules as currently exist, you would get regular protection.
                  • Leo replied to this.

                      KingLear we already went over such scenarios in the other thread, it's impossible to abuse. You lack understanding of how CLI works, so your logic is flawed.

                      To your claim of the old game being better. If it was better, don't you think it would have been around the last 20+ years? Reality disagrees with your opinion. That's why we're making the game better, so the majority of players have fun and continue playing - not just a few people in an alliance that enjoy a toxic play style.

                          KingLear that's fine, we can lose 10% of players that prefer a broken old game so that 90% of players can enjoy the new better game.

                          🤷‍♂️

                          You seem to think Thardferr would have stayed the same over the last 20 years and never made the changes that we're now considering. The reality is every round of old Thardferr was constantly changing. It's more likely that if the game had continued operating then things like CLI would have been developed a long time ago to address and fix such toxic strategies.

                              KingLear Let's think now as Thardferr like a living beign that evolves incredibly fast focusing to make the game more friendly with a lot of QoL features, rather than a static game board.

                              If this is better than old Thardferr or not, depends of individual appreciation, it's a matter of taste.
                              The true reality is, if we implement Thane's suggestion and it doesn't fit, we'll change it again.

                                Lord Thane then the fun of gang banging suicidal attack on top 1 in rank will be no more. This is the real fun for me. Not toxic at all.

                                    Retals need to give retals. You saw it last round where after players in top were broken by multiple hits they actually grew in castles because they were able to freely take every retal and not have to worry.

                                    Gangbangs need to be possible or it will prove exceptionally hard for to break kingdoms that get out in front.

                                    CLI is abusable in big ways. If someone hits me for land, means they didn’t take a castle and don’t get CLI, means an ally of mine is probably about to get an easy castle. It takes away the tactic of watching the KHoF to snipe easy castles of larger kingdoms when you see they make a hit.

                                    Another random thought, what if after 48 hours castles of being built/acquired via attack they became permanently part of your kingdom. Kingdom A hits Kingdom B. Castle is taken. If kingdom A has 5 castles with the 4 of them being permanent the new 5th castle is the one just taken and only. Turns into a game of chase the castle. I think this also leads to slow sustained growth. By the time Kingdom A is ready retal it might already be with Kingdom J. Idk. It’s an idea. Poke holes in it fellow thought leaders.

                                    Maybe make castles cheaper and faster building. Doesn’t hurt as much.

                                    Only defend with half your army. Prevent castle wipes. Makes the retal harder though… maybe not a bad thing but maybe a terrible thing. Boost up smaller KS army strength when taking retals? I would think only do the boost when the ks difference is larger than 20%

                                    I’ve had many ideas for Thardferr some good some bad. Probably mostly bad. I still apologize for CTA and orc wolves live on no matter what to do damage… oops. Solving castle passing and pre/re is not possible. The most simple straight forward option is retals give retals and you can BF but with heavy penalty (this needs to be heavier like no castle below 70%).

                                    I think removing the ability to attack inside your own province is a safe thing to put in.

                                      I'm happy with just trying something. The old system is too punishing and we know it doesn't work. What's the point of attacking when you open yourself up to losing twice as much as you gain along with likely massive troop loss. It was a bad system in the early 2000's and it remains bad. These are test rounds, let's throw some shit at the wall and see what sticks. As Keeper said it's not written in stone, it can always be removed later

                                        KingLear under CLI a #1 player could still be taken down easily, the only difference is they wouldn't be subjected to playing the game of castle passing to protect against pre-re from the alliance.

                                        Maybe we'd get into a situation where an alliance allowed a top player to feed on them for constant protection. That'd technically be fine - as long as the feeders were actual players and not multis. If a group of players really wanted to dedicate their game time to running a sort of Farmferr just to get 1 player into a top spot, that's fine I guess, seems really dumb and boring though. But again, that's fine technically. It would actually be a ridiculous feat to pull off since the protected kingdom would be growing exponentially compared to the feeders who would be constantly shrinking.

                                          trupheus CLI is not abusable in any way, you haven't given a single argument to prove it's abusable.

                                            Thecatman
                                            Also need to think about ways to attract new players. The first time someone new encounters the castle passing pre-re bonanza, they will be done with the game. Giving new players without a large friend base the ability to actually play the game can only be a good thing. The answer to the problem can’t be “join one of the 2 alliances and participate in the circle jerk”

                                                • Jets

                                                • Post #20

                                                I like getting gangbanged, and I love a good re re re re.