Tech Upgrades Major Change Implemented

Lord Thane

@Thecatman hit it on the head about military. You should have probably at least 2-3x as many total units as you do now, definitely 3x as many ranged units. Ranged is one of your more powerful units, and they get to attack first before short/melee, so they can help your melee units by thinning out the enemy - especially useful against orcs/humans. I see what you mean about working to hard counter the Undead, but it's not something the elves are really well suited for - they have weaker armor that doesn't make for great melee, unless its lancemen against orcs.

I would suggest building some ATC buildings and pushing those. The Caragous are a mystery unit, but they have an enormous potential as part of your attack strategy against humans/dwarf/elf foes (not so much against fodder races). The elite archer and mage are very powerful though, especially with that bow tech.

Another elf near your ks and much less land does have 3 more techs that is giving them a ke boost, but they also have more than 3k military than you do, which heavily increases ks.

Like catman said you're pretty economically fat at the moment, need to consolidate and build up a stronger force.

Zown

Lord Thane
Interesting. So you are confirming the same thing @Thecatman is saying as well. So everyone around me is running 1:1 with half my land and invested into schools, and I'm running .5:1 with double the land, giving me double the resources? It sounds like anyone equal to my land is double my KS and out of my attack range anyway. Making everyone at my KS equal only in the army, and will ultimately lose the long battle since I have stocked up on unlimited resources.

Zown

Thecatman
Yeah, but can't undead build 2:GH? If you just hold back 20% of your main force after your second attack, wouldn't that basically be equal to about 40-80% of their main force? Plus, your legion rebuilds quickly. If they ever attack back, you would easily summon a legion army to spam them, right? I feel like the fact you don't need food is kind of busted, and you just need to plan attacking in two phases with undead, and you should be able to outscale anyone you are already higher in KS than. They seem OP to me, but I haven't played them yet.

Lord Thane

Zown you need to talk to our Pinoy players about this - they'll have some words about it lol... I haven't played undead yet, but gotten some intense complaints. It's the first round with Undead in the mix, so everyone is still learning, maybe your strategy has some merit 🤔

xiAo-Shin Star

Zown
Your idea is great, however I don't know if there is anyone here want to risk with that and give out 2 retals. Yes indeed, Undead can build up Skeletons that fast, but if is not good to defend your kingdom. Believe me, we all tried. In our team here, we have pure Legions, 1/3 ATCs and Legions. While me, all round armies with 50% Skeletons. We failed to defend our Kingdom while Attacking cost us more casualties.

Plus, I don't think sending out Legions can help that much. They are weak they may immune to Long Range but they cannot sustain much in Melee and Short range which lead them killed before reaching the enemies Range armies. Maybe, if maybe Legion are also immune to Short Range which I have been suggested. They can put up a fight at least to be able to reach the long range on the other side and kill a few. 1 strike of melee will easily kill the Legion. Let's say 1 infantry/sword = 5 skeletons.

Zown

Lord Thane
Now that I think about it more, I believe the KS bug I'm seeing results from a flat KS per unit and wizard. There might be around 3-4 KS per unit and .5-1 KS per wizard. While that doesn't seem like much, it has a significant impact on gameplay when considering that GHs have the same limit across all races. As you mentioned in your recent update, humans and dwarves receive the biggest boost in technology upgrades for units, and they already have some of the high-stat, heavy units. So, when kingdoms max out on GHs' space, those races will naturally develop stronger militaries compared to races packed with fodder units. The KS each unit provides should probably depend on stats somehow, and wizards should probably give less KS initially, scaling up as more powerful spells become available.
People see my kingdom with abundant land and assume I'm an easy target because of my KS, but they don't realize their schools aren't giving them as much advantage as my land does, and their military is only somewhat comparable because they're also boosted in KS from technology.
I think that's what kept happening to @Adamastor, and why it feels frustrating on his end. I have equal GHs but with higher stat units and nearly unlimited resources, yet the KS indicates he is at least 10k-15k higher. When he rebuilds his KS, skyrockets in comparison, so I look like an even easier target, only to find out I'm still stronger. And the whole time, he is waiting on resources to rebuild as he described.

Nolio

xiAo-Shin Star I agree with you that Zown's idea sounds good but giving up 2 retals seems like too big of a risk for an undead player.

What I can say to you point about Skeletal Legion compared to Human infantry, because gnome infantry is much weaker, is that while you are correct that a 1 to 1 Skeletal Legion to Infantry, the infantry will kill 5 skeletons, and it take 3 skeletons to kill 1 infantry, Infantry train at 1/30 the speed.

So in the time it takes to make 1 infantry, you can make 30 Skeletal Legion. You outpace the humans in production, and that wins in 1v1 fights.

The problem I tend to have with fodder units is that it's unsustainable to keep building that much armory. You may have noticed the same issue, or perhaps that's not been an issue for you.

What I have seen is that Undead has some pretty strong units. You Knights are slightly better than Human Knights in my opinion since they cost a little less but have the same stats. How do the other units feel to you guys?

Adamastor

Zown i havent been only fighting with you. For what i see, undead can only fight someone if we have some 2-1 porpotion in troops, and its not certain that you win. The keeper tought that because they dont take food, they can rule anyone. The fact is, if you concentrate on making Skelletons you wont make many of the other troops. If you balance, when you take heavy casualties, you cant recover like the other races. The lack of resources and weapons make it very hard to manage. There are only 2 guys who started the round with undead, and leaving prot was a real challenge, since evryone at that time had bonus resources that made it really hard to keep up. I can see only 1 guy succeding in playing undead so far,. Oh, and i only tried to hit you to get cgi, because i get hit every day long.

Adamastor

Nolio undead units are great... the problem is that you cant make enough of them in time to retal, for example. The skelletons , to be effective must be overwhelming more than the enemy. The other units, except abomination, are pretty good in stats, but since they die alot, because skelleton have 1 defence, you cant really recover them in a short time (24h for example). When you have enough troops to retal, it may have already passed. Yes, you can make hundreds of skelletons, they are cheap,but your weapon making is not so good. You have to chose, and either way, probably, it wont work in a long run.

xiAo-Shin Star

Nolio
Well, the only faster to train are the Legions, however it does not help that much. feels like its a waste without other units supporting them with damage.
And you're right. It can't keep up with the armories and both other units needed a Sword. To be precise, @Adamastor is right, it can't recover you in time.

And what I have observed the stats are way off or let us say its not that effective. They are way weaker that the casualties are too much. Is it because of the strat that makes them a fodder or probably its because my armor is not yet upgraded. What about you guys? (Undead players) what do you think?

skigglez

Adamastor
There are plenty of elf targets around the KS that you are currently sitting at. If you went 100% legion army you could easily rise up the rankings by attacking just the elves, then revisit your army comp as there are less of them. Just make sure you get all of your sharper blades techs before you start going too ham.

To do so you would need to run high houses (around 4:1), mines (around 1.5:1), GH (2:1), and forges (0.75:1). They train so fast that you don't really need a bunch of TCs - but you can just calculate how many TCs you would need to fill your GH with skeletons in a 24 hour window (can assume that 25% live in each attack). You don't have to have the economy and forges to 100% replace the full army every 24 hours, but you should aim to be able to do close to that. Always have the rusted swords building and you should see that you will have alot more success. The blacksmithing techs would help alot as well, and swords are the second one in so it isn't a huge time investment getting it.

Adamastor

skigglez im playing them since the start. I've found the pros and cons. Remember that people fight back also. I have the attack tecs, the weapon tecs. To run the kingdom like you said,it isnt hard, just attack and dont get hit back. The problem is when you have to fight, and like i said, it will take forever to rebuild a mixed army. I have no problem playing with legion only, but there's only 1 undead i know who is getting well with that strat. Also, when you attack and win, you get alot of empty land, so you have to build up some mills. To get the gold, you need some markets too. I also have schools, cause i nedd the bless. Maybe the way you tell me to run the kingdom buildings,isnt so doable as you said.Each skelleton take 2 people to make, so if you make them by the hundreds, its hundreads of pop that wont make gold,and also cant be put in work. I know the basis, but that may not be enough.

skigglez

Adamastor
The ratios I gave you were just rough estimates and added up to 8.25 buildings per land - squeeze in whatever else you need for mills/markets/farms/TCs. From what I can see running wizards on undead is completely useless - just buy the MP from the market to self cast blessings. The economy you give up to maintain schools/wizards is not worth it at all (i think one wizard is around 7gold upkeep).

xiAo-Shin Star

skigglez
Indeed Wizard does not help that much in being undead, however you beed it or else you are undefended from spells.

skigglez

xiAo-Shin Star
With the economy issues you're describing, I think that sacrificing that spell defense is mandatory in order to fuel your army. Not every race can have the best of all worlds - and are there really that many elves using offensive magic that wasting all of the land/gold upkeep on wizards is worth the tradeoff? Perhaps that is where some of your issues are coming from

xiAo-Shin Star

skigglez
The idea without school/wiz is good. But you never know, anytime/anyone might be scheming. We'll be a good target. so dropping it is not helping, better prepared than never. Remember you have lots to risk whenever you take retals to a caster. Lucky for Maga, Bowelburg they had enough resources to rebuild and Trup has no one in his side to break the guy after he casted.
I'm a victim once and that took me awhile to rebuild the 300+ buildings lol.

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