CLI

Strider

After one round wondering what everyone's input is? What adjustments would you recommend if any?

King Haybol

Strider In my opinion. No need for CLI in the next round. 😂😂😂

Lord Thane

I think it's greatest success is that the main concerns about cli didn't come to fruition. For example, the top players got swapped out of the top spots several times throughout the round, as did top provinces, cli didn't help people keep power or turtle. The other thing is, it didn't stop battles from happening, there was still a crazily healthy amount of attacks happening everyday. Sure it would be difficult to find a juicy target at times, especially with bottom feeding debuffs in place, but that's really just a result of smaller player base which is natural.

I didn't agree with it becoming a tech, rather it just be on all the time - but I can appreciate the added dynamic of more strategy at play with having them as techs. Plus, it eases everyone into full CLI as the round progresses, making it even more interesting, strategically.

Some things I appreciate about cli is we don't see posts every week complaining about pre-re, castle passing, and alliances ruining the game. People still complain about those things, but it's far and away less glaring as a major issue.

People complain about bottom feeding more than CLI related things nowadays, even with all the many bottom feeding buffs in place. I just can't see making anymore bottom feeding buffs, there's already so many... Perhaps increasing the effect on the KS penalty could be a good one.

I think for next round we should leave cli as is. I would rather change these:
-increase the KS penalty debuff.
-either lower the castle chancification down to the first 5 only, or make it set as a standard on all castles progressively in each rung (at 11 castles you lose 1 and have 10% chance of losing a second / at 21 castles you lose 2 with 10% chance of losing a third, etc).
-buff gnome/orc/elf with either a unit upgrade (add armor) or increased training speed.
-buff some things skigglez mentioned about undead, some of it seemed really reasonable.
-no race/province change, or allow change with loss of 1/2 of everything (land, buildings, techs, etc), crippling it as a strategic option but still keeping it available as an alternative to people wanting to quit.
-decrease some tech times, add new techs.
-develop thievery system, implement by mid round.
-sending aid in-province only, except elves get a special pass to work as mages for hire.

Eri

Lord Thane as a game getting longer maybe u adjust also the percntge u cn attack u can get cli. and the bottomfeeding.

For example now. All are big ks.. 70percnt of ur ks is so disadvntge already even u have penalty.. i admit that now im doing it right now hitting 70percnt of my ks. I can leave enough troops to defend even his has medical.. mybe 1mnth b4 end of round u can adjst to 80 percnt u can get cli.. and 60 u jst allowed to attack not 50 anymore haha..

skigglez

Lord Thane Can you clarify which changes those were for Undead? If I recall correctly, these were the things I mentioned a few weeks back:

Racial tech doesn't do enough - either give more range or completely change
Gold upkeep is a bit high, but if market doesn't change it's not the end of the world. Wizards being 7g upkeep makes it almost impossible to effectively run magic
Caragous is crazy expensive and mounted, giving Undead 3 mounted units. Not sure changing the caragous does anything positive for the race, even a cheaper version i don't think is viable given how the scaling works (see Haybol's BRs where he's running a similar number of caragous as other units and losing all of them every attack).

I will say that I don't think Undead is in a bad place, so I would caution about going too far on any changes. With how few people have played it, maybe it needs another round of data before going too hard.

skigglez

Lord Thane couple of other thoughts:

Castle chancification must scale throughout the game. The 20 castle jump thing has caused a ton of stagnation, there is no incentive for someone with 20 castles to attack someone with 19 - you just lose an extra castle if they successfully retal.
Race change should be something that exists, it's better for someone to change race than lose the player completely. But as you said, a massive penalty should exist to prevent abuse mid to late round. 1/2 tech time alone would be enough in my opinion.
Send aid being elf only outside of province: what if someone is a human and wants to be a caster? Seems kind of arbitrary to pigeon hole that caster role to elf only. And it doesn't solve the multi situation - all multis would just go elf to be able to send aid.

saadht

Criticizing CLI obviously draws the ire of Thane, so I'll steer clear of that, my views are quite well known.

One thing I'd like to insist we discuss is more protection for the defender. Successful defends suck, they don't feel successful at all, but I understand the perspective of Thane here. If we do something to successful defends, taking out bigger targets gets even more difficult.

However, if we can have more protection for unsuccessful defends, it'll be great. As things stand currently, if the defender doesn't retal immediately, he's stuck with max 20 hours of protection. He also just lost troops and land/castles. Why not make both CLI and protection at either 24 or 20, retals remain at 24. This way, a group cannot gang up on someone and hit him straight OOP to prevent a retal.

I like your new chancification idea Thane, but lets keep it till 5 castles and then 100% chance of 1 castle loss till 19, and when we cross 20 have a 10% chance of a second castle until 29 which has a 90% chance of 2 castles. Starting to lose 2 castles at 11 will cause another jump-hurdle in my humble opinion.

Thecatman

I think overall CLI has been good for the round. If you look at how the round started if CLI didnt exist that 4 prov alliance would have dominated but with CLI my group (around 10 players) were able to compete all round. I like how CLI has made individual kingdom strength/management matter more than how many people you have in your group. I agree with saad though, defending needs to be looked at. Right now you are better off just sitting there with QR on and losing when you get hit, very little incentive to try to defend.

trupheus

Thecatman I like how CLI has made individual kingdom strength/management matter more than how many people you have in your group

I’ll pick out one seemingly random sentence out of the plethora of comments. Your group was very coordinated in attacking. If one person bounced there was a second person to follow the bounce and the person that bounced was put in protection. That’s team coordination. That very thing got most of you to where you are. Not hating on it at all just saying I’ve seen it in action. It’s coordinated and not easy to do and proof Thardferr is a team game. Your group playing across multiple provinces enabled you to circumvent the no attacking inside your province rule that was put in place while still getting the benefit of the racial bonuses. You guys cracked the code first to what the new meta will be. I foresee more of the same next round pending other changes.

The only other group with that level of coordination was shunned (~~banned~~) and the cause of the no inside province attacking rule to be put in place.

KingLear

skigglez either at top or in bottom rank. You're still crying out loud.

jerseyj282

I'm playing undead this round - i'm an old time player. I think Undead is competitive for the most part. agree with Skigglez suggestions for some minor tweaks. Wizard cost should maybe be 6 instead of 7. Racial tech should be a little juicier. Abom Caragous are mostly useless in terms of cost so may need an overhaul, but that's a problem for Elves too. I think people are underrating the benefit of not having to run much farms, or being able to sell the extra food for gold.

Idea for the CLI tech - maybe rename it as divine protection and include buffs to defensive protection also as you improve it? Would have to tweak / differentiate the hour #s a bit probably.

Vesuvan

At the risk of ruining the good thing I have going, here are my thoughts…CLI with the 70% rule and Transport breaks the game in favor of the bigger kingdom. If I chose a target that is just within 70% and attack with just enough to win and defend a retal then I get land and castle(s), 24 hours to retrain and build which definitely allows me to outpace my enemy who only gets 15-20 hours, and then my army is home in 18 ensuring I have at least 6 hours before I’m OOP again to find a new target within 70% to repeat the process. Even better, if my enemy retrains fast enough then they will be back in my range by hour 15-20 when they are OOP and I can repeat the process knowing they will be open to attack! Granted this requires the kingdom I attacked to retal and lose, or simply not retal…but as long as one of those 2 things happens, then I literally never leave pro, and always have a high chance of winning my attacks. It works great, but also feels wrong….

FriendsInSpace

Vesuvan Counter point, as long as CLI timing remains the same as retal rights then the toxic pre/re situations of the past can't exist, barring failed attacks where a critical misstep is made.

Without the ability to prevent pre/re on every attack, you encourage multis (Haybol) to exist even more. And then we go back to square one, how to deal with all the multis (Beast) in the game.

Is CLI the right answer? Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. It definitely favors the attacking kingdom that's for sure. Perhaps extending land/castle loss protection to 24 hours would help balance it out, as when you drop out of the winning streak it can be a long, slow climb back up, as I have and i'm sure your province has encountered. But the thing is, Thardferr has always favored the attacking kingdoms.

Also it results in funny situations where blunders are made trying to get CLI, and you get just rekt in the process.

skigglez

More protection for losing definitely makes sense, but I think the attacker should get rewarded for taking the initiative and get longer protection. Baseline protection of 20 hours for losing a castle/land seems reasonable to me, so that if you fail an attack you at least get your troops back home with transport before you're out of protection again.

skigglez

KingLear huh? That’s what you got out of my post? You ok dude? If you actually read my post I was asking for extra protection for losing castles/land. You care to add something useful to the thread?

skigglez

trupheus that’s exactly why some kind of province boost for number of castles would do well, and encourage people to play in a province together. We split across provinces initially because we wanted to play different races and wanted to see what the racial province bonuses were. We normally wouldn’t pass castles between each other, but after seeing it done against us countless times we also adopted that approach this round.

FriendsInSpace

trupheus One thing to keep in mind though is for the past couple of weeks our biggest guys were unable to do anything to help out (other than resources) our smaller guys because of the ks differences. There are about 10 us, but only 4ish can act as a group at any given time because of the disparity in size.

AdinTheDark

FriendsInSpace
I was BFed twice by Skiggles and the second him army killing me for someone to follow. You guys have things to do. The boredom is mostly self imposed

skigglez

AdinTheDark to be fair you messaged me to do it again after the first time, so I did. It was a one-off experiment, and not something that is viable to keep doing for the rest of the round

AdinTheDark

skigglez

Well I did say let me know if you’re going to do it again. Not do it again. Lol

skigglez

AdinTheDark miscommunication on my end, my bad. We got there in the end, would have felt bad if you were on QR