CLI

AdinTheDark

Just another example of how KS difference compounds later in rounds.

trupheus

AdinTheDark Just another example of how KS difference compounds later in rounds.

I think it highlights the short sightedness of CLI. Early-mid round sure it looked ok. You saw some turnover as everyone was growing. Mid-late round it’s turned into what I thought it would. Those on top remain there. Get someone established at #1 uncontested who feeds others to get up in the KHOF. K19 tried but ultimately hits from others stopped them from going after the king.

Maybe a cutoff where top 15 don’t get CLI. Or the last month CLI is disabled (only if it’s not a tech).

skigglez

trupheus Tough to gauge this one because of the late game farm mode effect. I was at 1.8 GH and sent 60%, but both mages and caragous are fairly weak units on defense. One of my normal archers kills a mage, and the caragous were probably pretty close to the bottom end of their scaling since they were significantly outnumbered. Caragous just need a rework - the only use for them is to defend against suicides from much smaller kingdoms. Getting hit from someone larger and they are worse than fodder. Agree with Adin, it does highlight the KS difference problem as well as how wizards can skew the power of a kingdom.

trupheus

skigglez

I only had 30k ks worth of wiztards. You always think I have way more than I do. 🤣

The really inflating factors are that schools give the second most KS per building while providing no offensive threat and caragous give 9ks per unit. So at the time 150k ks was from schools and almost 300k ks were from the worst unit in the game. Recipe for getting FUBAR’d.

Elf, weakest race in the game, had a chance when EQ was insanely overpowered and hitting me would have cost the attacker everything.

For those wondering I was on no strategy. QR would not have mattered. I would have killed less and still been zeroed. EG I would have killed more and still been zeroed.

skigglez

I know I mentioned it before, but I keep going back to these questions/comments regarding CLI and retals:

what percentage of attacks resulting in successful retals would the community consider acceptable? How does that compare to what the actual numbers are showing (Thane/Keeper would be the only ones who know that).
should the game be designed so that every attack from a higher kingdom result in the defender being able to get back what they lost? There seems to be an expectation that every time someone bottom feeds you that you should be entitled to get back what you lost - can't think of any other game where that's the case.
if CLI goes away, is it healthy for the game to be designed for the attacking kingdom to lose double the castles/land that they took in the attack? Wouldn't that encourage more people to farm or to only hit targets at the very low end of their bottom feeding range?
is the castle passing pre/re any more interesting than what CLI offers? I have seen tons of action in the KHOF all round after CLI was implemented, it seems like most of the negative comments stem from it being boring or it encourages bottom feeding. People have lives and aren't able to check their kingdom every hour, so creating too much action in the game will probably be a deterrent for a lot of players.
fairness of CLI and/or bottom feeding only seems to get brought up when someone is on the receiving end of an attack, I haven't seen too many posts from those winning the attack claiming unfairness

trupheus

skigglez what percentage of attacks resulting in successful retals would the community consider acceptable? How does that compare to what the actual numbers are showing (Thane/Keeper would be the only ones who know that).

I’ve heard of more retal bounces recently than a month ago.

skigglez should the game be designed so that every attack from a higher kingdom result in the defender being able to get back what they lost? There seems to be an expectation that every time someone bottom feeds you that you should be entitled to get back what you lost - can't think of any other game where that's the case.

Inherently it’s not. Never has been. Hence the rise of the pre. Weakens the bigger kingdom so the little guy could retal the big guy.

skigglez if CLI goes away, is it healthy for the game to be designed for the attacking kingdom to lose double the castles/land that they took in the attack? Wouldn't that encourage more people to farm or to only hit targets at the very low end of their bottom feeding range?

Counter question, is it healthy for people to be able to attack with 0 risk of retal? You knew I’d have no chance. And it’s not always double. We’re far enough in that there are 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5 castle options. More options and far more complex than when everyone was a 1 castle hit.

This is different from current state how?

skigglez is the castle passing pre/re any more interesting than what CLI offers? I have seen tons of action in the KHOF all round after CLI was implemented, it seems like most of the negative comments stem from it being boring or it encourages bottom feeding. People have lives and aren't able to check their kingdom every hour, so creating too much action in the game will probably be a deterrent for a lot of players.

We all came back to a game with no CLI. I think it was Vesuvan who pointed it out, CLI makes it safe for you to make 1 attack a day and then wait.

skigglez fairness of CLI and/or bottom feeding only seems to get brought up when someone is on the receiving end of an attack, I haven't seen too many posts from those winning the attack claiming unfairness

I would not expect those benefiting the most to bring it up as an issue.

Vesuvan

trupheus skigglez

I would like to point out that I actually did bring up the unfairness I saw in CLI as the winning attacker! I spent over 2 weeks in perpetual CLI testing a theory: if I only hit a target who was almost exactly at the 70% threshold, with just the right amount of troops to win (found a pretty accurate way to calculate this), that I would also successfully defend leaving the original defender essentially helpless. I only failed to defend once while doing this (credit to Adin for finding me through the fog)….all I could think of after 2 weeks of this was “wow, CLI is super unfair to the defending kingdom!” But I play within the parameters of the game, so if that’s how Thane and Keeper want Thardferr to be now, then that’s how I’ll play.

Iceman

I am not sure I agree with your comments. T-4 was at the top for the first half of the round, with CLI. They fell. The forums now are nothing but complaints about how the game is unplayable and how all the mechanics are broken. Is there a chance maybe the group on top is just better and more organized? I agree Elfs need work, but CLI or bottom feed had nothing to do with you loosing that attack. My army would of easily zeroed you and I'm 200k ks smaller than you.

K-19 was never at the top or a threat to take over the top of KHOF.

trupheus

Iceman I am not sure I agree with your comments. T-4 was at the top for the first half of the round, with CLI. They fell. The forums now are nothing but complaints about how the game is unplayable and how all the mechanics are broken. Is there a chance maybe the group on top is just better and more organized? I agree Elfs need work, but CLI or bottom feed had nothing to do with you loosing that attack. My army would of easily zeroed you and I'm 200k ks smaller than you.

K-19 was never at the top or a threat to take over the top of KHOF.

If you’re packing 100k+ units to throw around and leave a large force home then yeah you could have.

Early through mid round changes are expected as the growth rate is crazy. What we’re missing is the chance to even overthrow the top. It’s late in the round. Some folks are craaaaaazy powerful with big armies. The argument is not that an elf army shouldn’t haven’t gotten absolutely taken to the wood shed. It should have. But any smaller kingdom has 0 hope in the current state at this point.

skigglez

trupheus could those retal bounces be due to strategic choices? Why is the assumption that it’s some game mechanic causing them? Attackers adapt when the defenders use the same strategy for a month straight.

Iceman

trupheus

I’ve heard of more retal bounces recently than a month ago.

I hit Whitebush 5 consecutive times testing and trying to figure out how defend a retal. How is that a game problem that we adapted and made changes. Maybe the groups complaining should be doing the same thing.

FriendsInSpace

Is this a CLI issue or is it an issue of Orcs being OP in the late round due to the way ks is calculated with units.

I haven't seen a full list of the ks that each unit gives, but in my experience switching from elf to orc, orcs can run a much bigger army while staying at a low relative ks. Especially compared to elves, which just need an entire rework (I will beat that dead horse forever).

I proposed a change to tech ks to Thane a few days ago that should mitigate some/most of the issues, as a fully SB/LA teched out orc army is ridiculously powerful, considering the combined techs give a paltry 6k ks.

trupheus

FriendsInSpace Orcs being OP in the late round due to the way ks is calculated with units.

Don’t ruin my plans for next round.

I know what elf gives. I know gnome for sure was being figured out. I think @skigglez was doing undead? It’s super clear that there’s not some kind of rule for how much KS a unit gives relative to its strength.

The biggest WTF is that Balista give less KS per unit than EA.

For you big beefy boy kingdoms with a real military, breaking someone smaller than you is easy and extremely low risk because of CLI. If a group bands together to break a beefy boy, retals don’t give retals so you’re free to take as many as you can. In the old days you’d have to be careful because if you took too many you have suddenly over exposed yourself and will be toppled by retals.

FriendsInSpace

trupheus That's why i think it would be better if the military ks was better aligned with how useful/strong the unit is.

Realistically, with the armies we have in the top 10, us orcs should be about 100-200k ks higher for how efficient their units are.

Caragous, for how "good" it is as a unit, should give -5 ks. Not 9.

trupheus The biggest WTF is that Balista give less KS per unit than EA.

That is hilariously bad.

I don't think CLI is the root issue here, the issue is power imbalance. Once you level out the KS differences to be more relative to the army strengths, the chances of succeeding on a retal become much better. Also, with CLI, initial attack bounces are that much more punishing. Ask me how I know,

trupheus

FriendsInSpace Caragous, for how "good" it is as a unit, should give -5 ks. Not 9.

Caragous giving negative KS might balance them out… then again all it would take is one fodder heavy race to say nope not enough.

The extremes are too extreme. Strong doesn’t have to mean complete annihilation. Orcs are weak to gnome. Should every battle have to result in the orc being obliterated for the gnome to win?

AdinTheDark

When T4 was at the top, we couldn’t even hit kingdoms 250k below us and still get the CLI. That’s the issue. The “complaints” were voiced before, and now it’s reaching the point where we were worried about. The KS disparity means we might as well end the round today. Not much is going to change in the top 8 or so.

Just you guys out farming each other.

What strategy have you used to get there? There isn’t much strategy to the game anymore. Hit once every 18-24 and get the CLI. Build some stuff and do it again tomorrow. Taking advantage of failed attacks and retails is the only strategy other than some different army/building builds, maybe just making sure you’re also attacking the people everyone else is.

How did you not notice it was easier to defend a retail when you got to 50k-100k bigger than the opponent?

These aren’t “complaints” it’s legitimate concerns that were brought up before and shut down. There will be a point in the round where the CLI is so oppressive there is no downside. Shouldn’t there be balance? I’m not saying every single attack should easily be retailed. There should be a chance to win if the person hitting you had a chance to beat you. What percentage that is, I’m not sure. You’re on top now. I’ve said congratulations already. If the tables were turned to this extent, I doubt you would all be silent.

skigglez

AdinTheDark With all due respect, that's up to you guys to figure out what strategies there are - why would we tell you how to play the game? If you think it's black and white with no strategy employed, then it's to our benefit that you have that mindset. I don't think that pre/re castle passing was any more strategic - it just required the larger group to overwhelm the smaller group. Perfect example is Haybol and Shin Star - you can see from their forum posts that they have absolutely zero idea how to play this game, but in the old pre/re castle passing versions they were successful purely based on numbers. Eliminate that advantage and you see the results in the KHOF right now.

AdinTheDark

skigglez

Oh so it is a secret strategy you guys are using. Sorry for my assumption. I thought it was luck and now using CLI with a superior advantage. Guess you guys are just way better at the game than the rest and have zero advantages currently that the rest of us don’t. Congratulations. The game is now balanced.

FriendsInSpace

AdinTheDark Ignoring your sarcasm, at least a few of us are advocating for changes to balance the game. And if my memory serves, we changed up the way we hit and have been bouncing retals since before we completely took over the top 10.

Reverting CLI doesn't fix anything. You just trade the hit once every 24 hours, for: wait to be hit then you and a buddy gangbang. Pre/re isn't any more "strategic" than what is going on now, it just means the largest group/people with the most multis (Haybol) wins.

What needs to happen is balance changes between the races and fixes to magic, techs and other things. Most of which I believe Thane/Keeper are working on, and will continue to work on until we find balance.

skigglez

FriendsInSpace yeah I have been advocating for changes and tweaks to balance the entire round - CLI isn't the problem. I don't see how we would get overtaken now if CLI wasn't in the game. Only difference would be that we would just never attack anyone - there would be no incentive to.

AdinTheDark

FriendsInSpace

You’re right. MAGA just brings it out of me sometimes.

I’ve never said get rid of CLI though and even said it does something’s well. Just saying it needs balancing at a certain point it benefits larger kingdoms to the point of being unfair. I’ve seen you and a couple others agree the current ks scaling is off. There shouldn’t be a point in the round you can hit someone gain CLI and not have to worry about a retail. I feel like I’m beating a bush here with this. Skittles asked what percentage we think is fair and the exact number I can’t tell you don’t know if we can get that number right. In the beginning and mid round it felt automatic you almost always won the retail and I said something about it even then. That trading 5-10 land back and forth was pointless. Most of the attacks happening now are full sends if they are bigger 75% if they are closer to 70-80%. There is so much that needs balancing but we are implementing new things? I get it they were happening at the same time but it feels like Devs see the game as balanced now when that’s not what it is.

FriendsInSpace

AdinTheDark There shouldn’t be a point in the round you can hit someone gain CLI and not have to worry about a retail.

100% agree, if all hits are a guaranteed win it takes the competition, and fun, out of it.

AdinTheDark Skittles asked what percentage we think is fair and the exact number I can’t tell you don’t know if we can get that number right. In the beginning and mid round it felt automatic you almost always won the retail and I said something about it even then. That trading 5-10 land back and forth was pointless. Most of the attacks happening now are full sends if they are bigger 75% if they are closer to 70-80%

We actually have been winning with sends as low as 60/65%, which is a bit bonkers tbh. More proof that the calculations of kingdom strength need balancing, as at the upper ranges the issues really get brought out. I don't know if changing the floor percentage of CLI will really affect anything though, the bigger issue is balancing the KS given vs actual army strengths imo.

AdinTheDark I get it they were happening at the same time but it feels like Devs see the game as balanced now when that’s not what it is.

I can't speak for them, but I don't necessarily think that that statement is true. Thane was open to my idea of military techs scaling the KS values of units instead of giving a flat 1000ks, which is a huge step in the right direction imo.

I believe we just need to see what happens next round. I dont think they have time/the desire to muck with this round more than already has been, it not being their full time jobs and all.

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